Look closely at this man. Imagine him with a .40 caliber pistol strapped to his hip. Then imagine him on a horse, shouting and waving a lit torch as he tears around his Dove World Outreach Center, burning Quarans. That’s his way of commemorating the 9th anniversary of 9-11. But God speaks to him. God is telling him to do this..or not to do this. He and the 50 followers of his church are praying about this, but even the criticism of world leaders, he says, probably won’t deter him.
The fire department in Gainesville, Florida have denied him a permit to burn the Quarans. But Holy Cowboy says his attorneys have told him he can carry on with the burning even if the city denies the permits. It sounds like the lawyers are talking to God, too.
The synchronicity here bears the dark trickster’s fingerprints. A church that has dove in its name – the universal symbol for peace – intends to engage in an act that will spark violence. Then again, what were the crusades? How many atrocities have been committed in the name of religion?
Personally, I wish Holy Cowboy and the other idiots like him would just ride off into the sunset and that clouds of dust would swallow them.
Watch Jon Stewart put this guy in his place!
Update. We were going to post this on 9/11, but decided to go a day early because the situation appears to be in flux. The burning has supposedly been cancelled. Or has it?
Connie,
I appreciate your thoughts and thank you for taking the time to engage in this discussion. For a more accurate view of who I am and where I am coming from I certainly invite you to visit my blog and read some of the eclectic topics I discuss there. If you do, make sure you leave a comment and say hello.
Trish and Rob–Thank you for hosting this lively discussion on your blog. I believe it's healthy to air disagreement in a civil manner. Most blogs and just all sugar sweet all of the time and no one ever disagrees. This debate has shown that you are open to moderating division in a respectful manner which is a commendable attribute.
WV : hantheg — "hand the goodness to another and it will be returned to you eventually."
Lee
Tossing It Out
The Trickster seems to have been extremely busy yesterday and today with the electronic equipment! My computer is behaving like a child who needs to be put in Time-Out!!
Lee, I certainly believe you are kind. It wasn't my intent to sound arrogant when mentioning my profession, etc. I'm just a wandering soul who has been around this old world, (and a few others!), countless times, in this life and many in the past, and was fortunate to have the opportunity for much education. I didn't mean to sound conceited, and am actually very humbled and grateful for all that I've been taught and am always willing and wanting to learn more. The discussion has been civil and enlightening, as our host and hostess make certain the conversations here remain so.
Peace. cj
Thanks for explaining that and I'm glad that Connie received a forward. Sometimes stuff just gets lost I guess.
Lee
Tossing It Out
Rob and Trish–
I thought I was done, but synchronously we were both making comments.
I don't see any beauty at all in the sacrificial act, but the intent was beautiful. Blood sacrifice seems to span cultures and I will admit it seems weird to me, but I am of a different era.
By the way, I'd love for you to check out my post tomorrow (Friday). It is about a prediction someone made about me 40 years ago.
You might have some special insight about this story that could provide enlightenment to me and my readers.
Later,
Lee
Tossing It Out
Just for the record, stephen and lee's comments came up in gmail, but not in the comment section. And no, they weren't deleted. A blogger glitch,a google glitch, whatever, I don't know. A few other comments didn't make it, either. I forwarded Lee and Stephen's comments to connie in an email.
Connie,
Thank you for the time and effort you are putting into this discussion. I didn't realize that my simple comment would expand into such a lengthy exchange.
I do feel that it is unfortunate that some very excellent comments from me and Stephen T McCarthy somehow disappeared leaving a gap in my side of the debate. You seem to have subscribed to this comment thread. If so did you see the same comments that I saw that do not appear here now?
In any case I want to try to briefly answer you (indeed a difficult thing to keep brief considering these things have been discussed in a multitude of books for centuries). Also, I will note as I did previously that I'm not sure that my comments have been actually read and understood so much as pick over to extract points of disagreement. You might want to review the course that the discussion took to see if you fully comprehend where I am coming from.
1) There is a distinct paradigm shift between the Old and New Testament which is probably why they are divided. The basic message of the Gospels stands alone, but is made more comprehensible by studying the Old books as well.
2) The Old Testament is basically an account of historical record and the content of this part can enlighten the reader as to the nature of sacrificial cleansing of sin.
3)The New Testament is a more clear account of Jesus and His teachings to those who chose to accept.
4) I am but a miniscule molecule in the infinite and mysterious mind of God. I understand more as time goes on but it is all too complex for me. The slaughter, the wars, the horrible sounding acts are difficult to understand, but the longer I experience life and study the Bible, the more I understand which still isn't much.
5) My "fear based" remark about the threat presented by religious diversity fortunately has not been something I've ever had to deal with to any great extent. I am referring to serious areas of conflict like India and Ireland where religious intolerance and bigotry has escalated into violence. History has a whole array of horrible examples which you could probably cite better than I since you are so better educated.
To conclude, I did not cover all of your points–I have other things I am trying to focus on and can't spend all of my time addressing this issue.
In case you didn't see my previous comment that was deleted where I told something about me, I am a peace-loving and kind individual. I am a good son, a husband, a father to children that I care for greatly, and a grandfather to an adorable little girl. I'm good-natured and like to think of myself as a person who tries to resolve conflict whenever possible.
I think some insinuated negative labels have been nudged in my direction during this discussion. I think it is unfortunate, but it is also something that I probably should have expected.
WV: "irmyx" — Bad grammar again!
I are mixed up when it comes to understanding why some of the comments are no longer here. 🙂
Take care
Lee
Tossing It Out
Yes, the image of a tortured man on a cross is a great example of cultural and religious indoctrination. I've pointed this out to born-again types, but the indoctrination is so firmly established that they don't find anything unusual about it. But show them a picture of the hanged man, dangling upside down, from the tarot deck, and they'll say those cards are the devil's work. Our next door neighbor, a 7 Day Adventist, did just that recently when Trish did a reading for his sister-in-law.
What they say about the crucifixion is that you have to look beyond the image to see the beauty of the sacrifice. Of course, when the Aztecs and Mayans did it, they were savages.
There is one note I feel compelled to add, because to me it is of utmost importance and is the bottom line of Christianity. Any God who uses VIOLENCE as a means to accomplish conversion is not a God I wish to claim. Any God (Creator/Parent) who allows his "Only Begotten Son" to be tortured; to hang on a cross with nails through his palms and nails through his feet, with a sword struck through his side, is a God of violence and is not a God I wish to call my Creator/Parent.
How can Christians contemplate the "sacrificial" torment of Jesus as a tool for conversion? In my opinion, it is hideous and an abomination, yet is intended to bring the masses to believe that God The Father is a merciful God?? Is the Crucifixion of His Son a demonstration of his mercy?? Would your EARTHLY father, who is human, allow such brutality to bring you to your knees? Mine would not. I cannot entertain the premise or hypothesis that such horror is different IN ANY MANNER from the sacrifices made by Satanists. Surely a loving Father/God could have arranged a different and sensitive means of converting his sheep to His Way.
I cannot and do not accept that such a murder, (and yes, it was murder), is the way to heaven, nor is it in any manner conceivable to me that this act served to banish from me my sins. No pastor, priest, preacher, or other man of the cloth has ever been able to adequately explain to me precisely how that worked….that the Crucifixion of Jesus took my sins away. For me, it bespeaks of the devil's work. Yet millions follow that path, and it is their right and I honor and respect the rights of all to practice his or her spirituality as deemed acceptable. But it is not acceptable to me. It is not my way and I do not embrace it, nor shall I ever. To wage war against Islam on the pretext that they brought down the World Trade Center, when the very portrait of Christianity is a stained-glass cathedral window picture of a dripping bloody man hanging on a cross with thorns splitting his head? Tell me the difference. I will listen. cj WV:
andemo and demo nstration?
So well put, Connie, and WORTH REPEATING.
OOPs. Sory for the repeat, Guys. Com,puter glitch. Lee, would you kindly explain your comment that
"diversity in religions in the real world can be threatening"?? That comment interests me intensely, as it is a fear-based remark. Thanks. cj
Yes, I am Connie. My older sister majored in religious education at a huge Baptist University before she changed her major to medicine. Her thesis was on The Dead Sea Scrolls, and I studied and researched with her. Medicine is also my profession, with a minor in applied mathematics and a life-long avocation in ancient languages. Just stating facts and background. I am not young. I imagine I have memorized the Holy Bible numerous times and can sit here all day quoting chapter, verse, and line in the original Aramaic as well as in the multitude of translations and interpretations, some of which are grossly, (and probably intentionally), in error. You have quoted the Koran, (which I also own). Lee, you cannot separate the Old Testament from the New Testament in the Holy Bible no matter how much you may wish to do so. Nor can you deny its tenets. The Old Testament is the forerunner to the New Testament, or to The Gospels, as Christians prefer to call the New Testament. There are horrific references to war, to the spilling of blood and gore in the Holy Bible, whether you want to admit that or not, (commanded by God), and whether you want to separate it from the NT or not. There are literally thousands upon thousands of verses in the OT stating "And God Said….. smite these and smite those" etc etc etc, too many to mention on a blog. Also, Jesus said, "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Light. No one cometh unto the Father but by Me." That is the Christian doctrine. It is preceded by the words of the prophets in the OT. That is no different from the words in the Koran which state that their way is the only way, their God is the only God, and to smite (kill) any who differ. We can debate this all day, but would never come to anything but more comparisons that are similar, if not absolutely identical, in nature and intent.
The Christians state that Jesus is God made manifest in Man. God in Christianity is war-mongering, vengeful, wrathful, punishing, espouses belittling of women. God in Christianity terrifies and threatens children and makes them afraid that if they "sin", they will burn in hell forever. Jesus was God, and yet He was The Prince of Peace? I will not condemn Christianity, nor will I condemn Islam, nor will I condemn Catholicism, or any other path of religion a person chooses to embrace. I do, however, refuse to support those persons in ANY spiritual journey who use and abuse their religious doctrines as a reason for prejudice and to inflict pain upon others. Every spiritual path, and there are hundreds if not thousands, has its evil-doers and its fanatics. I personally choose love and peace and healing, and find it wherever I am able. cj (Connie) WV:
"gloing" glowing?
Yes, I am Connie. My older sister majored in religious education at a huge Baptist University before she changed her major to medicine. Her thesis was on The Dead Sea Scrolls, and I studied and researched with her. Medicine is also my profession, with a minor in applied mathematics and a life-long avocation in ancient languages. Just stating facts and background. I am not young. I imagine I have memorized the Holy Bible numerous times and can sit here all day quoting chapter, verse, and line in the original Aramaic as well as in the multitude of translations and interpretations, some of which are grossly, (and probably intentionally), in error. You have quoted the Koran, (which I also own). Lee, you cannot separate the Old Testament from the New Testament in the Holy Bible no matter how much you may wish to do so. Nor can you deny its tenets. The Old Testament is the forerunner to the New Testament, or to The Gospels, as Christians prefer to call the New Testament. There are horrific references to war, to the spilling of blood and gore in the Holy Bible, whether you want to admit that or not, (commanded by God), and whether you want to separate it from the NT or not. There are literally thousands upon thousands of verses in the OT stating "And God Said….. smite these and smite those" etc etc etc, too many to mention on a blog. Also, Jesus said, "I am The Way, The Truth, and The Light. No one cometh unto the Father but by Me." That is the Christian doctrine. It is preceded by the words of the prophets in the OT. That is no different from the words in the Koran which state that their way is the only way, their God is the only God, and to smite (kill) any who differ. We can debate this all day, but would never come to anything but more comparisons that are similar, if not absolutely identical, in nature and intent.
The Christians state that Jesus is God made manifest in Man. God in Christianity is war-mongering, vengeful, wrathful, punishing, espouses belittling of women. God in Christianity terrifies and threatens children and makes them afraid that if they "sin", they will burn in hell forever. Jesus was God, and yet He was The Prince of Peace? I will not condemn Christianity, nor will I condemn Islam, nor will I condemn Catholicism, or any other path of religion a person chooses to embrace. I do, however, refuse to support those persons in ANY spiritual journey who use and abuse their religious doctrines as a reason for prejudice and to inflict pain upon others. Every spiritual path, and there are hundreds if not thousands, has its evil-doers and its fanatics. I personally choose love and peace and healing, and find it wherever I am able. cj (Connie)
Hello CJ (is it Connie?)–
I gave a response to this statement that was made earlier, however my response seems to have mysteriously disappeared.
You are quite right that the goal of many religions is to convert others. It's how they do it that is the real concern.
Christians were given The Great Commission by Jesus: "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you." (Matthew 28:19-20) What Jesus commanded was a message of peace and free will acceptance which is the message of the Gospels.
Islam teaches violent conversion, war, and rejection of the free will model. According to the koran:
3:85– If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
8:39, And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in Allah altogether and everywhere
Muslims are also told:
Take not the Jews and Christians for friends … slay the idolaters [infidels] wherever ye find them. …Fight against those who … believe not in Allah nor the Last Day. Sura 5:51
Sura 9:39 If you do not fight, He will punish you severely, and put others in your place
And one koranic verse that is especially chilling:
I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them Surah 8:12 (No wonder the muslims like to cut off heads and mutilate people.)
These messages are all over the koran. Some may argue there are many things in the koran that are similar to Christianity. Remember that islam is derives its teachings from Christian and Jewish faiths. Islam is essentially a political agenda that has taken an air of religiosity. Christianity is far more the religion of peace than islam.
As I have said before please don't point to the misleading references to forced Christianity upon indigenous peoples, inquistions, witch hunts, crusade attrocities. These are not in line with true Christian teachings and were the result of bizarre superstitions, economic miscreancy, and outre criminal brigandry. Jesus did not command any of this behavior.
The message of muhammed is clear.
I agree with you about diversity being a wonderful thing when it comes to offerings in cultures and the arts. Diversity in religions makes for interesting study, but in the real world can be threatening.
If you have read this, I thank you.
WV– "sparro"
"Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows" (Matthew 10:29-31).
Lee
Tossing It Out
"We have two paths to follow. One is acceptance and tolerance. The other is fear and destruction. It is up to us to make the choice."
Wisdom in very few words. I only have one remark to make because otherwise I would run out of space on the blog: Lee, you remark that Islam tries to convert the world to Islam. Lordy Lordy Miz Claudy! How many Christians come to my front door trying to hand me copies of the Bible? (I already own eleven different versions of The Holy Bible due to my decades-long research work in the ancient Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek language systems.) How many Christian preachers and laymen and missionaries spend their lives doing everything within their power to convert everyone to Christianity, to "save their souls from hell"? For a Christian to say the Islam religion tries to convert the world to Islam is the pot calling the kettle black! Wheeee. Diversity is the name of the game of life. Diversity is all things human. Peace. cj
How sad! Through my subscription feed to comments I received the recent comments that are no longer on your site as well as your comment that "comments not coming up0". Would you like me to past these two lost comments to a new comment and send them on to you?
I thought they were pretty good and I was enjoying our delightful conversation.
WV: "sitasmi" = sit as me (or "as I" to be grammatically correct)
which means I hope you will be willing to sit face to face for reasonable dialogue and not be afraid and destroy the conversation.
Lee
Tossing It Out
We have two paths to follow. One is acceptance and tolerance. The other is fear and destruction. It's up to us to make the choice.
WV: seethle
wow: seething Lee
There can be evil in even the most live and let live Christian denomination. My denomination does not outright condemn abortion. One of its hospitals was the first one to transplant a baboon heart into a human baby. It has a worldwide charitable ministry yet, the Branch Davidians – Koresh and a group in Alaska with strange beliefs started with the denomination as did a pastor in Houston who was accused of war crimes in Rwanda. There is good and bad in every group and if we are willing to look hard enough there is good and evil in each and every one of us.
It is so sad that anyone considered an OTHER is automatically labeled as if not evil then stupid, crazy, etc., etc.
Ray
Jerry Falwell and David Koresh walk into a bar.
The bartender says, "Sorry, I can't serve you. You're both dead."
Koresh says, "Dead? Aww,that really burns me up."
Falwell says, "Everyone dies, but no one is dead."
The bartender then says to them, "I am a muslim. I am not permitted to partake of alcohol, but I am encouraged to find infidels to serve it to."
A drunk sitting on nearby stool turns waveringly and slurs, "Thish shounds like a set up for a joke, but it's not really funny."
The muslim bartender slowly turns with a serious expression and intones, "Because it's not funny."
The drunk tumbles off his stool and stumbles out of the bar shouting, "That's the last time I come in thish existentialist establishment!"
WV — "rascou" is the way the drunk would have pronounced rascal.
Have a great day!
Lee
Tossing It Out
Thanks for your words of reason…….I can't help but come back to this, because it really is so very important. To say, as you point out, that all Muslims (which include millions of people and creeds, including the peaceloving Sufis) are terrorists is like saying that all Christianity, with it's charitable organizations, it's gnostics and Unitarians…..are the same as Jerry FAlwell. To generalize is to invite hate, and perhaps even genocide (what were the roots of Nazism? What happened in Rwanda?)……..I find this kind of narrow, naive thinking terrifying, and so very counter to what our country was founded upon, which among other things, included tolerance and religious freedom.
The bottom line remains that associating mainstream Islam with the gang of Saudis who destroyed the WTC is no different than linking the face of Christianity with David Koresh.
wv: worshisc
sheesh!
I agree with you completely about the violent content found in the Bible. If the Bible had a rating like movies, some of it would be rated R or even NC-17. But we have to keep in mind that most of the Bible is a book of history and it does not try to gloss over anything no matter how bad. There are amazingly violent things in the Bible that certainly bewilder and shock me. But this story that the Bible tells is the same as the stories throughout all of history.
However, the main message that one should be taking away from the Bible which includes the Gospels is that this violence is not right and we should love and serve one another. Peace is the ultimate goal, but no earthly government will ever bring a complete and lasting peace.
Like an advertising slogan "religion of peace" has come to be synonomous with islam. I think we have to look at the fruits of the religion (of all religions) as it (and they) evolve throughout history and what they represent today. I don't like the face of islam–it is a very scary and deceitful face.
I am a very peaceful person who doesn't like confrontation. One on one I do very well with people of all kinds. I have no hatred or fight against any people or person unless they are trying to hurt or oppress me and my loved ones.
If we spoke the same language I imagine that I could engage in civil conversation with Adolf Hitler as well as I could Billy Graham as long as it was just two people talking and not arguing or trying to force ideologies.
So I hope no one is under the impression that I am a fanatic, a racist, or any sort of hate monger. I am merely a relatively reserved individual who likes to explore ideas and sort out truth.
WV — "sonatica" — I love classical music because it brings a great sense of peace to my mind and it is mentally stimulating. This WV word makes me think of some form of sonata.
Lee
Tossing It Out
>>This was not Christian by nature, and if done under the auspices of Christianity then it was due to misinterpretation or purposeful skewing of the tenets of the faith.
And likewise, terrorism is not the nature of Islam. It's known widely as a religion of peace. If you want violence, go read the bible.
Trish and Rob — At no time did I make any reference to race. Muslims are not a race.
Lee
Tossing It Out
Opposing views are fine, Lee. Racism is not, at least not on our blog.
cj — I don't want to belabor this issue too much since we are probably ideologically and semantically opposed to some extent and I have a ton of emails piled up that I want to address.
To clarify:
We are at war with islam — officially the government line is no and as a people most of our nation do not want to be. But the ultimate intent of islam is conversion of all to islam and death to all infidels. History speaks for iteself. Since they are at war with us, then that puts at war with islam whether we want to be or not.
Salem witch scandal — not having been there, from what I understand, the perpetrators of this event were delusionally ignorant. It was the result of similarly misguided thought that brought about the fringe element actions during the Crusades, the Inquisition, the destruction of Aztec and other peoples' cultural heritage and libraries, and other unfortunate tragedies. This was not Christian by nature, and if done under the auspices of Christianity then it was due to misinterpretation or purposeful skewing of the tenets of the faith.
Terrorist Government Groups— I guess it is a matter of which side you're on, semantics, and other influences on what you believe. Topic is too involved for me to want to explore right now.
In any case, thanks for your extensive replies / comments. Take care.
WV –"calbl" which could be an alternate spelling for "cabal"–hmmm.
Lee
Tossing It Out
Oh my goodness! I leave the room for a while and next thing I know all of my friends turn against me and start talking behind my back. 🙂
Trish and Rob — Did you seriously contemplate deleting my comments? Interesting in a post that has to do with book burning–the favorite means of censorship by tyrannical rulers who don't want disagreement.
With the exception of my Sunday posts, I welcome opposing views and radical ideas. I would never delete anything except for mysterious comments in Chinese, advertising spam, offensive language, or personal attacks against other commenters.
Sorry if my comments were too radical or disturbing to any of your readers.
WV — Minche– as in "I don't like to minche my words when I'm trying to get my point acrosh."
Ray – coven??! Now that's truly weird. I like connie's too, relevant to reptiles!
My most recent brief comment brought up a pop-up that said "service unavailable". I will re-write it if I can and see if it will come up, and hope it isn't repetitive. I commented something along the lines of the Illuminati, being a real organization that is well-hidden, pitting country against country and peoples against peoples, for its own nefarious pruposes. A wicked entity stirring a boiling cauldron of hatred that spews and spreads like a cancer whose primary lesion cannot be located or detected.
If this repeats, I apologize. Merc retro? Or Watchers? The WV on that comment that didn't make it through was relevant to "reptile". This WV is "sensuri". cj
Sorry for the repetition. It came about because I got a Google error message saying the post was too long to be processed. So I tried half at a time. That didn't leave out the error message. I tried going directly to the blog and posted again not realizing what happened.
One of the WV's was COVEN.
Ray
Ray – I deleted one of your comments since it was a repetition. All great points about black ops. Ted Koppel came out with something similar to your comment, Ray, about conning us into conflict with the Muslim world.
Re American terrorists, don't forget CIA black ops. The CIA planned and assisted in carrying out the assassination of Chile's President Salvador Allende in September 1973 during the Nixon administration. This was done to bring Augusto Pinochet into power. All of this because Allende wanted to keep the profits from the copper mines for the Chilean people instead of Corporate America and the rich Chileans they deemed worthy of bribing to make this rape of Chile's mineral wealth possible.
In 1983 I spent a month in Chile. On a bicycle ride to Viña Del Mar rode to the top of a small hill and found a bakery. As I was about to enter I met a young woman who asked me if I were a tourist. When I told her I was there aboard a US (some Chilean's resent our usurpation of the term American) ship she asked if I would go back down the hill with her to a coffee house. Once there she told me a story that I never fully understood until I had her write it out for translation by the Chilean-American Marine aboard ship.
A group of students from the University of Valparaiso holding a demonstration were taken into custody. The women were tortured, raped and sent home as a lesson and no one ever saw the men after the arrests.
The woman asked me to get this information back to the US. I wrote my congressional representative and both senators and did not even get an acknowledgment my letters were ever received. That had never happened before or since except for the second time I repeated the same letters when I moved to another state.
I asked if she wanted me to walk back up the hill with her. She agreed, but when it came time for her to catch her bus she asked me to go into the pastry shop so I couldn't see what bus she caught. I then told her, "I don't even know your name."
Her reply was, "You don't need to know my name."
My translator told of his high school teachers calling the roll. If anyone was missing that person's name would be stricken from the roster and never mentioned again. His father still lived in Chile. He had moved to Chicago with his mother. He used to call his father on the phone. They would talk in English and the monitors wouldn't say anything, but when they switched to Spanish they would be disconnected the moment they said anything the monitors thought subversive.
What made me think of this long ago incident is that a 2000 episode of Law and Order was about a man who was murdered when he found out the colonel responsible for his son's death was in a New York hospital. The son was pointed out to the Chilean colonel by a deceased US Navy captain by TELEX the day of the coup. The captain's son pushed the victim's father down the stairs when said father wouldn't believe the captain was dead and wouldn't go away.
I am watching a show discussing Al Qaeda. One of the panel said America is terrorizing itself by over reacting. He said Al Qaeda's goal was not to defeat the US, but to con us into a conflict with the Muslim world. That is probably closer to the truth than anything I have heard on the subject.
Ray
P.S. Speaking of the movie ID4, I've often wondered if it is going to require our entire planet being attacked from some outside force, whether that force be hostile entities or a natural catastrophe of epic and unprecedented proportions such as a direct hit by a deadly heavenly object, for humanity to come together as brothers as the only means of survival. For me, that is definitely not beyond the realm of possibility. WV: "baliv"
Believe? cj
In the words of the character of Harry Connick, Jr., spoken in the movie INDEPENDENCE DAY which carried such a spectacular universal message for planet Earth: "Amen".
Look at this WV: "extraere" cj
We have decided to leave Lee's comments – rather than delete them – as an example of fear-based logic, a nationalistic rather than planetary perspective, and religio-centric thinking (my religion is better than yours) – all parts of the world's problems, not the solution, and IOHO, a lower vibrational message of anger and hate.
R&T
WV: thionar
(theo)cracy-(na)tionalism-
(r)eligion
Agree 100%, Lauren! It seems to be the nature of humans to do battle in one way or another and must have something upon which to lay the blame, when in point of fact, humans simply seem to be prone to fight each other. Intolerance is generally the bottom line. Lack of honoring another's thoughts, ideas, color, culture, religious preferences, gender, lifestyle, etc etc etc. etc., brings about arguments that escalate into genuine wars. They can be large or small. The KKK was/is a Christian organization, and in the name of the Ascended Master Jesus they sought/seek out and kill, in heinous ways, persons of color. I can imagine the Prince of Peace weeping as these atrocities happem. The Romans sought out and killed the followers of Jesus, and Hitler and his minnions sought out and killed the Jews. It has been endless and on-going throughout time. I hope I didn't sound like a traitor in my previous comments. I have a very dear and precious friend who was a Marine officer in combat duty in VietNam. He was in Special Forces. I cannot tell you how often he has cried in despair, (and he is a powerful, manly man), because in carrying out his sworn duties, he was forced to kill and maim innocent women and children in the villages of VietNam. He will never be the same. He is proud of his Service and does not regret it, but he does regret the killings, by his hand, of innocents. These are the kinds of dues we pay when we take arms against fellow humans for any reason. Hatred begets hatred. War begets war. It is the story of Mankind, shamefully. Hopefully,
a new and elevated paradigm may be in process as an apparently different and highly evolved, peace-loving species of ancient souls are being born in these troubled times. I trust their leadership and guidance may have an impact towards uplifting the Whole of humanity. I have five young grandchildren: three little girls and two little boys, and each and all of them are amazing peace-lovers who do not even fight among themselves, and also amazingly, remember past-life experiences. They are radiant and joyful and loving and it SHINES from them. We older folks should heed their examples, yes? WV:
"prevl" prevail??? cj
I heartily agree! How on earth do they get the "dove of peace" (originally, the Gnostic Dove of Sophia, before it was co-opted)……as an emblem of war? How do they get the "Prince of Peace", the gentle prophet who taught loving kindness and non-violence…….to be the sponsor of hate and violence? I agree with you indeed, and never can get over the human capacity for turning religion into whatever they want to turn it into.
One wishes people like this could at least be more honest, and chose a god like Thor; followers of Thor never worried about hypocrisy, they just went out on the battlefield looking for a good time and a Valkyrie or two to carry them to Valhalla when the party was over.
Don't take the logistics from such a debate, Lee. I stated that there are warriors (terrorists) who are Muslims, and this goes back through time. There are warriors, (terrorists), who are Christians, and this goes back through time. The United States of America has terrorist organizations currently and historically that we revere and reward and support and label "heroes". These American terrorist organizations are the Navy Seals, The Army Rangers, The Soecial Forces in each of our military arenas. These American terrorists are trained killers, just as are the terrorists of any other country or organization, whether military or religious, and it is the specific designated purpose and duty of these American terrorists to seek out and kill our enemies. Does that make us any better than anyone else? Not in my opinion. (For the record, I have members of my own family who are in the "elite" special forces ops of American military.) Christianity has had many terrorists among its ranks throughout history who have perpetrated enormous damage and killed hundreds of thousands of innocents. May I cite the burnings of innocent women who were merely natural healers in the city of Salem, MA, and elsewhere, and were burned at the stake by Christians?? There were THREE MILLION women, yes, that's right, three million such innocent women, burned at the stake and/or drowned in the name of the Christian God. So please, Lee, if you're going to make the erroreous statement that we are at war with Islam, don't ask me to refrain from pointing out the obvious
and historically accurate murderings and wars carried out by Christians. America is at war with terrorist organizations and individuals who are Muslim, (some of them), and terrorists who are of other persuasions, some of whom were born and raised as caucasian Americans. No, I am not Islamic. Nor am I am Christian. I'm a born and raised American southerner, who lived in Montgomery, Alabama, during the Martin Luther King days of the 1950s. I'm old enough to have witnessed many wars, having been born during the moments of the destruction of Pearl Harbor. This makes me intimately familiar with WWII, Korean War, Russian Cold War, Castro/Cuban Cold War, VietNam, Desert Storm, the present war, and all the other skirmishes in-between. I stand by my statement which is substantiated by fact: currently, America is not at war with the religion of Islam but with Terrorism and terrorists, and our country should clean up its own act and tend to its own business here at home. Goodness knows, we're in one heck of a mess and our attention needs to be focused on matters here, spending our money here, bringing our troops home where they belong, with their families. I love this country. I support our troops but I do not support war. It is possible to do that. Get your facts straight before telling me we are presently at war with the religion of Islam.
This present war was instituted with a pre-emptive strike that should never have happened; one that was unconstitutional at best, and has escalated beyond any sense of the reason it began, and by whom. Our children and their children will pay the price for this war for decades to come. And what will have been solved? There will always be terrorists among any group, who have issues they settle with violence. Peace. cj
cj–
you said:
Remember, we are not at war with Islam.
History would prove otherwise with this statement. Study the intentions of the islamists who latched on to muhammed's lie, to conquests of many countries including Turkey and the Balkans, Northern Africa, and Spain. Was there any intention of war (conquest by force). What about America's own first international confrontations with the Barbary States beginning in 1801 — not due to provocative actions by islamic terrorists? Is jihad and forced conversion to islam not the intent of islamists?
Please don't cite actions of Crusaders 1000 years ago or quests for conquests in the new world that were actually for the purposes of economic and politcal gain, but falsely attributed to forced Christian conversion. There are many fallacies to this argument whereas the intent of islamists has been clear.
Personally I don't want to be an islamist, do you?
Lee
Tossing It Out
Thank you, Sansego. After a rough beginning way back when, :), we seem to have many of the same philosophies! Sharing is always good. cj
CJ…AMEN to your last comment above! I couldn't agree more. Its well written and I may just have to copy and print it for myself!
Sorry about the "re-play", Guys. The computer is still under the influence of Retro Mercury, obviously, along with virtually everything else being under that influence! Please tell us old Merc will be turning direct soon!
cj
I beg to differ about the Koran being "just a book". It is not just a book. It is just one of several other holy texts on this planet. it is among several other holy books on this planet, and should be treated as such. Respectfully, even if one does not agree with its tenets and doctrines. I am not a Christian, but I would never in a million years refer to the Bible as "just a book". The Bible is filled with much wisdom, if one chooses to find the wisdom hidden among the mundane material also within its pages. If we accept the concept of reincarnation, (and it is the foundation of my personal belief construct), then we must also accept the premise that there are many paths to tread as we journey through many past and current life experiences, and that each of us will experience ALL before we may decide to leave the perpetual wheel of coming and going. An individual's spiritual choices, (or lack thereof), are the dynamics which guide the person, and for that person, are right, in the moment and in the life. Remember, we are not at war with Islam. We are at war with terrorists, some of whom are Muslim, some of whom are not. Respect the Holy Books of all faiths. There is not a single person breathing who knows for an absolute fact the Whole Truth of life and its Realities. Diversity in spirituality is the learning process by which our souls grow and evolve. Don't shut yourself off from that evolution. In another life, the Koran may be YOUR Holy Book. Peace. cj
Arlee/Lee: The Koran may just be a book, but some christians would feel the same about a group of muslims threatening to burn a Bible, which is also just a book.
Ray – the car salesman fits!
Gypsy: the wv is a riot!
one of the first things i thought with the cowboy deal [well, that i can put on the internet], was his 15 minutes toward gaining membership thereby gaining $$$ to hopefully deliver himself from facial hair – but no, sorry i digress –
what a disgusting bunch of 15 minutes [long ago headed into overtime] –
in any event, thanks ever so much for the mention of the obama speech, cousin cj – i missed it too but will now go back and track it down – thanks again!
and get this wv = oveststa = "overstayed" – yep, cowboy, you have!
I heard a few things when the Holy Cowboy first started reaching the mass media.
1. He has delusions of his stunt catapulting his 50 member church into a mega church worth mega bucks.
2. He started as a car salesman.
3. Anyone can get a license to preach from the inernet.
I have a friend who used tell me that when something like this hits the media to listen to what comes in under the radar. He was referring to initial reporting before the networks, government or PR reps hide what they don't want people to know.
Ray
Here is another incredible film to watch;
https://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4913196365903075662#
It's called "The Boy With The Incredible Brain".
This one will blow you away and prove how powerful the mind is and I think this is still only a minute fraction of what it is capable of.
Cheers
Daz from OZ
The threatened actions of Pastor Jones should have an insignificant blip in the media, but oddly has grown into a huge story. Why?
Oddly enough thanks to fueling from peculiar Islamic sources this event has vastly been blown out of proportion as a propaganda tool to incite the muslim mobs against the west, much in the same way that the Danish cartoons did.
The muslims are going to rampage like raving monkeys and lunatics if we picture Muhamed, burn the koran, or move the mosque–it doesn't matter, they'll find something to be offended by. They threaten and we in the west cower in fear.
Now muslims want to complain to the venerable U.N. because they think they are being picked on. What? Are these the same muslims that have been desecrating our flags and religious symbols, killing and torturing Christians and other religious groups, and threatening to annihilate Israel and the Jews. Why wouldn't some people have a problem with that?
Besides the koran is just a book. They are going to rampage and murder over a book? I don't think muslims value human life very much.
Lee
Tossing It Out
We'll have a look,Oz.Thanks for the tip.
I'm having some major syncros today,they are coming in clusters and one cluster led me to this wonderful movie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W5opC_w1mjo
It's called "Something Unknown ( Is Doing We Don't Know What)"and before you start thinking it sounds like a conspiracy movie I can assure you it's not,although (and here's one sync)about half way through they have a segment about the physic energy surrounding 911 and there's a guy handing out some pamphlets at ground zero and in the background you can hear him saying learn the facts.I had a sly laugh at this to myself and thought "yeah,when are the(most)people going to wake up to the facts",then I turned around and found out I had forgotten to rip the date off my Chinese calendar which revealed 11 September(I live in Australia,we are a day ahead of the USA),anyway some of my favourite authors are interviewed in this film from Dean Radin to Rupert Sheldrake to Larry Dossey.
I've ordered a copy on DVD and can't recommend it highly enough.
Do yourself a favour and have a look at it.
Cheers from OZ
I agree. This guy has, like, 50 people in his alleged congregation. Incredible.
The behavior of this man's behavior (and others like him) is only overshadowed by the media that is spreading this hate and ignorance to innocent human beings. Filling their heads with it. It's disgusting! If only the media would back off- it would just be a bunch of crazies, burning a batch of paper.
One thing is for certain, God is not religious.
God,please save us from Religion!!!
Cheers from the land of OZ.
I saw part of the speech at the gym, but couldn't follow it. Will have to see a recap. Thanks for the tip, Connie.
Quite synchronistically, Obama just delivered the longest press conference so far of his administration and addressed, among other relevant topics, the Holy Cowboy. For anyone who missed the President's comments, they are well worth going back and listening. His point is well-taken that there are Muslim-Americans in American uniforms, fighting side by side with other Americans in uniform, in our war against, not Islam, not Muslims, but against small militant minority groups of terrorists who may happen to be Muslim and who are not afraid to die for their beliefs and destroy America in the process. THEY are the enemy. Islam is not. His speech was the absolute best I have heard him offer, bar none, even during his campaign and prior to his election. I am not necessarily always in agreement with this commander-in-chief, but I cheer this speech and his obviously sincere words. cj
Gwendolyn – occasionally we do these!This one is just so incredibly appalling!
I don't often see a 'political' type of post over here. Generally you are fully 'synchronised' to the positive observations!
This fellow is courting the camera… media oxygen fans his notorious self and does what Beck and Palin have learned to 'cash in' on… I'm sure you follow. It's a lowbrow cunning that's been template-ed by hate mongers who do the same in cashing in. It's a much 'higher up' / hierarchy / design than those who clutch onto the description of 'Republican' … to keep this feud alight… it is providing kind of population control through a designed narrative or national / global conversation. Distracts us from the Gulf of Mexico lies… the Afghanistan lies… I'm sure you feel me here. 🙂
Corporate religion, corporate politics, corporate Earth.
Not to be so down, still you have to recognize what is and what isn't. The 'dark trickster'.
They won't ride off anywhere until we change the political conversation…. and I'll shut up now…. LOL except to say, great job on your 'conversation'!
I was surprised by your post. I think it's great.
and amen, again!!! 🙂
amen!!!
Put a white sheet over his head with a pointed hat and two eyeholes and we have the truth of who and what this Holy Cowboy is. Just another version of KKK philosophy and behavior, burning the Muslim Holy Book instead of burning crosses on the lawns of African Americans. No difference. Christian hate-mongering. He's a coward, just as those who covered their faces with sheets were cowards. If he doesn't go through with his heinous plan, it's only because he's received so many death threats and he doesn't want to die tomorrow, which is also why he's now planned to be out of FL tomorrow, far away from his church, on 9-11. Does he think people are fools? I think he does. His originally stated reason had absolutely nothing to do with location of the Ground Zero mosque. We're at war. Certain individual constitutional rights are by necessity waived during times of war. This is one of those times, in my opinion. cj
I left an comment below on another of your post. Same thing happened. My comments about the Holy Cowboy were pretty incendiary and too long to repeat. Could have touched off that "catcher key" we've discussed. I wouldn't be surprised. cj
This story has gone worldwide – thus one of the negatives about modern communication. A few years back he would never have made such a splash in the media. According to UK papers he only gets 30 people a week to listen to his 'sermons' and that's the way it should stay. But today anyone can be a 'star'.
I don't fully get how / why a pastor would have a gun – doesn't seem too Christian to me.
Let's hope his God tells him the right thing to do.
try again, connie. it's been happening to me, too.
I made a comment that didn't go through. Window popped up saying service unavailable. Weird. cj
Yes, it's like…let's take this little grass fire and pour some gas on it. Then the wind comes up, the sparks are flying around the world instantaneously, and suddenly the media is discussing how silly the media is for blowing the whole thing up. The pot calling the kettle black.
He IS an idiot! Personally organized religion has lost all its appeal for me due to people such as this who somehow feel justified to commit these acts, while hiding behind the name of God, or those that know of acts committed and look the other way. Hypocrites that just don't get it. I am with you let the wind whip him up and blow him away.
Ha ha WV: rightton – right on!
It amazes me that this nobody can turn the world upside down. This is because of the mainstream media, in my opinion. I wish we could shun him.